Podcast Details


Inderpreet Wadhwa | Founder of Azure Power (repost)

2022-08-18
Inderpreet Wadhwa is the founder of Azure Power, which is one of India’s leading renewable energy development companies that has a total installed capacity of 7 GWs.
Azure power was the first renewable energy company to have an IPO and the first of any Indian energy company to list an issuance of solar green bonds in the international market.
In this conversation Mr. Wadhwa explains how he developed Azure Power into one of the most successful energy companies in India and reflects on the challenges the company was able to overcome along the way. ​ Topics covered in this podcast: ​ [01:58] Mr. Wadhwa briefly introduces himself and his involvement into the solar sector [6:41] The story behind one of the earliest Indian solar opportunities [14:30] How did solar energy in India take off in the early days? [11:22] What were the challenges in the early days of the solar sector and how have these evolved over time? [26:03] Will tariffs continue to be commercially viable even at these extremely low prices? [35:03] An incredible piece of advice for the young guns from Mr. Wadhwa

Transcript


Karan Takhar
Hello everyone. This is Karan Takhar and welcome to the Zenergy podcast. Over the past decade, India has done an impressive job of integrating renewable energy into its energy mix. For this Fulbright podcast series, I sought to investigate the enabling factors and potential of India's global leadership in renewable energy, with the focus on solar. This Fulbright series is broken down into Four Seasons. In this season, through conversations with leaders who have been instrumental in developing the Indian renewable energy sector, we will highlight how India has managed to integrate 35 gigawatts of solar in just a span of 10 years. We will also explore what these leaders believe the key challenge is to be as this sector further develops. 
In this episode, I'll be speaking with Inderpreet Wadhwa, the founder of Azure Power and a maverick in the solar development space, is the founder and CEO of Azure. Mr. Wadhwa developed India's First Utility-scale solar power project in 29. Azure was also the first renewable energy development company to IPO and was the first to also issue a green bond in the international market. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Mr. Wadhwa. Mr. Wadhwa, thank you so much for taking the time to participate in this. I've been very excited to interview you because you were one of the very first people to get involved in the solar sector in India, and I would like to start with just maybe a brief introduction of yourself. For listeners who may be unfamiliar with like all the great work you've done in India, could you just briefly introduce yourself?

Inderpreet Wadhwa
Sure, Karan. Thanks for the opportunity. It's a pleasure always to share whatever learnings I can with folks such as yourself. In terms of my background, I grew up in India, studied electronics engineering from Punjab, and I briefly worked in India in software development space with a company called HCL. You may be. Familiar with and then I moved to California in Silicon Valley. I worked there for almost a decade. Mostly with Oracle Corporation started on the applications engineering side and then moved up all the way to running a significant amount of CRM applications development business for Oracle. I then moved from Oracle to a start-up called Loyalty Lab, where we were building software as a service for leading retailers in the U.S., so this was the time when the software was shifting from a licensed model to a service model, which all of us take for granted today. So how you build a multi-tenant architecture? How we support multiple installations through a very efficient and low cost infrastructure and really hide all the plumbing from consumers of applications. So that was really. The thought process that business was sold eventually to TIBCO, another tech company in the valley, and at the same time I also went to UC Berkeley in the evenings for an MBA when I started thinking about social entrepreneurship, and it just so happened that some family work brought me back to India. After a decade and as part of sort of dealing with some real estate litigation, I ended. Up running into a couple of bureaucrats and government officials, and got into a conversation about renewable energy and specifically solar, and this was at a time when India did not have any large-scale solar generation in place did not even have the policy for procurement of solar energy, but there was a lot of push towards renewables and largely wind through an accelerated depreciation or tax benefit method. So technically, I was unemployed and got thinking about renewable energy and got an opportunity to talk about it with some of the people who could make a difference. And then that just led into. Setting up as a power, really. I mean, it was just by chance, nothing planned, or what have you, and then, I did that for almost 12 years, build one of the largest solar power companies out of India. We took the company public on the New York Stock Exchange. In 2016, which was, I think, the 1st company with Indian energy assets listed in a U.S. stock exchange. We then went on to list India's first solar green bond on the Singapore Stock Exchange, and in these 12 years, I raised almost $2 billion and, you know, developed about 50 megawatts of solar projects across 23 different states in India and then last year. I left as a power and studied some other programs where I can contribute. To some of the young entrepreneurs and their efforts in mentoring them. In coaching them and also thinking about the next thing I'd be doing.

Karan Takhar
It's amazing. That's why I was getting so excited to speak with you because Azure has just been a maverick in the solar space. As you mentioned, the first IPO, the first issuance of international green bond also saw that Azure launched the first megawatts rooftop solar project, and of course. As you mentioned, the First Utility-scale solar project in Punjab and. I would love to ask you about. Like the very first two megawatts project in Punjab, in terms of like how that ended up coming about, I did see a talk that you gave online where you mentioned how. You spoke with the Minister of Renewable Energy in India like during this time, and I'm just curious as to like how exactly did this opportunity to build the 2 M.W. capacity project in Punjab come about, especially when solar was so expensive?

Inderpreet Wadhwa
True, yeah. So, I think I was actually interacting with some of the government officials for the real estate matter that I was attending to in India, and the conversation just culminated into. Who was it? It was peak of summer in Punjab, you know, it was a month of. June and if if you. Ever visit Punjab in the month of June, and you can easily see temperatures soaring up to 40 degrees centigrade. So, it's really hot.

Karan Takhar
Was just there in the month of June.

Inderpreet Wadhwa
Day and we're just waiting to meet the Minister. And the bureaucrat that was waiting alongside me, we just started chatting, and you know, he just picked up on my accent at the time. He said like, oh, where are you from? I said like, I'm from Punjab, but I've been living in U.S. for several. Years and then? I asked. Him what does. He does, and he said like, you know, I do a lot of research and renewables. And I was in California doing some research on biofuels, and that just piqued my interest about why don't you do something in solar, and he said, like, oh, why didn't you tell us more? And also, we tell the Minister. A little bit about the opportunity in this sector. And when I met. The Minister I Just shared a little bit of the conversation and had barely run with the bureaucrat and talked about solar, and he said, why don't you? You know, spend some more time and tell us about solar energy, and it was a very innocent conversation that I had started. And whatever I had learned academically or being in California, this was the time in 2007. where rooftop solar in California was becoming important, and you know, energy as a service, modelling through solar was just picking up, and I shared all my experience with the team of the government officials at the time, and you know, then they started deliberating with me. Pricing, I think. For me, it was just a casual conversation. For them, it seemed. Like, oh, this is an expert. Who's gonna tell? Us how to do things. And you know, they started asking me questions about cost and price. I mean, I've always most Indian kids, as you have grown up in the U.S., considered to be really sharp in mathematics, right? So, I just did some back of the envelope calculations based. On the price of solar in California and then sort of, you know, adjusted it for the cost of construction and. You know, cost of finance in India versus USA and new broadly those numbers and I came up with the ₹15 as the tariff in that conversation, and they said it's too expensive. We have a proposal for ₹8. and from an Israeli company and I said that's fantastic, you know, I mean, if you bought a company who was willing to. Just at that price, you should go ahead and implement that, and they said, well, you know. There are a few catches to those proposals. They want a certain commitment. They want certain concessions. I said, look, so when you dig under the covers, you'll see that the true cost is not what I believe the true cost will be at the time.

Karan Takhar 
Interesting.

Inderpreet Wadhwa
And you have to realize that this point, there is no large-scale generation, there is no price benchmark, there is no regulator who's affirmed these numbers. So that's how the conversation started. So anyways, I mean. I left that discussion, you know, just thinking it was a good conversation. Hopefully, I've contributed a little something to that. Government suffers, and that's the end of it. And then a couple of weeks later, I ended up meeting the Minister again, and he said, hey, I heard your meeting went really well. So, most of the. NRIs just come and chat and then leave. Are you one of them, or are you really going to put your Money where your mouth is, I said. What? Do you mean he said Are You interested in building a project? At the tariff that you propose, I said. And I said give me some time. I said give me some time. And I think that's the point of Inflexion for me because I've always wanted to do something for India. I'd always wanted to do something. It was, you know, climate positive. I always wanted to make an impact in social inclusion, and it was like sort of that. You know, Inflexion point in my mind that hey, you know what? Like I didn't plan for this, but this sort. Of cheques, all the Boxes and why don't I go ahead and give this a shot? I mean, really, that's how. I started. I literally incorporated a company, build a website, put a proposal together, and made the first proposal. Then, of course, you know, I mean, it took me, like a year from there. To work with the regulators, you know, there's a proper tariff hearing. You know, tariffs were discovered, other companies in the sector participated, worked with banks, work with, you know, construction experts. Installation experts, design experts, a lot of things came together in a year from when that conversation happened to get the first contract, and we actually were the smallest with the 2 M.W. contract everyone else was signing 5 M.W. contracts, and a lot of people were quite skeptical and nervous, including my own dad, you know, he said. You know, you've never worked in India. You've never worked in a regulated sector. Your experience in California is frictionless working in a tech sector, and you don't come from a family of deep-pocketed individuals, so to me, this is a recipe for failure. And I told my dad, I said, look, you know, all the points you're saying seem logically right, but I'm too passionate about this piece. And let me just say, if I end up building into India’s first M.W., would you come? And work for me, I mean he. Had worked in a regulated sector in India only. Life. So, to me, that was like, OK. I don't have that experience, but I know. Someone who has that experience. So why don't I get him on board? So then, you know, we got the first contract, and rest is history.

Karan Takhar
That's amazing. So, I read the dust project, so Azure ended up selling the power at 17.91 rupees per unit for this project. And then, since over time, of course, this tariff rate has just decreased significantly, and I saw is there's more recent lowest tariff price to be around 2.48 rupees per unit. So, at that point in time, did you? Realise that it's solar could be really big in India, like was that part of your thought process you knew that solar would and then? Yeah. I'm just curious as to like how you were approaching it. From that standpoint? 

Inderpreet Wadhwa
Yeah, you know, my thesis was very simple. Right to me. I saw India as a country that has huge demand for power, and I also realized a lot of demand for that power actually is during daytime. So, most of the activity is in rural sectors like farming and agriculture happens during daytime. You can't really, you know, go into the fields at night. You have variety of issues, like you can get a snake bite, or you know you may need a lot of infrastructure to light up the fields at night to do any work so. To me, it was just. It kind of made sense. And India is blessed with fantastic solar radiation and number of days of Sun in most of the country; I mean, if you look at Punjab and Haryana, you know, or even Gujarat, are considered sort of the food basket of the world and the energy consumption is all during the. Daytime and if you think about. Coal power plants, you actually have a multi-part tariff on these projects where you sign a contract. You have to buy a certain amount of power. You can't have these plants come on and off at a win. So, you have provisions where you have, like a demand charge or a fixed charge that you have to pay for them to keep their projects running? Even if you're not buying the power, and I said like most of the daytime load could be met from solar, and you don't have to pay these extra charges. So, to me. It's something intuitive, something natural, something that's supposed to be or meant to be, right? So, you get sun for 7-8 hours? Fantastic. That's when you need the power and where you need the power. Building physical infrastructure. Takes a lot of effort so for you to build, you know, a port on the western coast of India to import coal from a place like Australia or Indonesia. Then you have to ship that coal to the other part of the country, let's say to Uttar Pradesh, and then you have to build a power plant there to generate the electricity, and then you have to bring the electricity. Back to. So, to me, this is very inefficient. I mean, that's how things were being built, but they were being built for a certain reason for a certain time, and I said your transmission infrastructure cost goes away. You can build solar project coal close to the demand centres or point of consumption that lowers your cost you don't have. Any fixed charges? Associated with solar because when the Sun doesn't shine. You don't get any power, and you. Don't need any power and then people will say like oh, you need 24 by 7. I said well, you really have to think about the mix of solar, wind, hydro, coal so that you get the most efficient. combination of power in the grid rather than just rely on one dominant. So that was sort of my thesis, and people said OK even if. Your thesis is true. It is too expensive. I said, OK, now, yes, it is too expensive today. But have you ever tried to think about what the price of coal energy will be over 25 years period? And people would just like knock their head and just or have a blank. But what is he talking about? So again, in most of the coal projects, you would have a multi-part tariff where you will. Have a pass. Through, so that would mean. For inflation as years go by you. Pass the cost of fuel or cost of inflation to consumers, so people are not thinking about the cost of coal in the 25th. Year. But they were thinking about the cost of coal on that day. I said this is going to get expensive, the cost of climate is going to get added. I mean, the health issues get added, availability of fuel source becomes an issue, and no one thinks that that's a risk. People would say like solar is a risk where the sun has come up every day for eternity, even before humans were born, and that is considered a risky source of energy versus this sort of maze of movement of natural resources that I just explained are risk-free. Honestly, I didn't get it. I did not get it. Then I said, OK, there is almost 30 to 40 years of commercial research available on how. The efficiency of. Photovoltaics has gone up, and prices have come down. And Moore's law is a case in point. So, to me, if you were to forecast inflation against the Moore's Law, Mozilla will win. And it will win in seven years. That was my business plan I started in 27. I said by 2014. Solar will be cheaper than. Coal and people said like. You're full of shit, So that's fine, I mean. I went all in, I mean. And interestingly, you know you said you. You've talked to a lot of other companies and other people. They all joined the bandwagon in 2014 when solar was cheaper than coal. Then everybody wants to build it because it's true and it's done. But for the first seven years, there weren't. A whole lot of. Sort of risk-takers or entrepreneurs. It's true if.

Karan Takhar
You look at a lot of companies. It's like 2012, 2013 is when they really started to getting involved. So that's very interesting. Well, much respect that takes a lot of vision and gut, and yeah, thank you for sharing all of those details. That were really nice insights. And especially like in the present and the more recent years, what are some of the main challenges that you see in terms of the solar sector being able to move forward in India particularly? Are there any major challenges that you think need to be overcome before India can actually hit its quite ambitious targets? Yeah, I think I.

Inderpreet Wadhwa
Mean India is done fantastically well in terms of hitting the targets, and if you compare it to many other countries around the world, you know, policy in a regulated secto cn always be Start Stop. I think India has done a fantastic job of keeping it moving in the right direction in the forward direction. Now you know, people say India has this ambitious goal of 100 gigawatts. You know, prior to 100 gigawatts and India had a goal of 20 Giga Watts, and today nobody remembers that 20 Giga Watts is a big number for India. Right, so in 2010, when National Solar Mission was announced, everybody was skeptical India will never do 20,0 megawatts, and today nobody remembers if that was even an issue or an ambitious target. So, I think India has done fantastically well in meeting its targets and climate obligations over and above what? What people anticipated. Having said that, I mean, there are always challenges. I think the challenge in my mind I think a lot of these projects rely on sound debt financing, and a lot of financing has largely come outside of India for these projects, whether it be equity, whether it be debt in specially for as you're almost, I'd say a big portion of the capital was raised outside of India. So, I think there's an opportunity for India to develop domestic debt market permits. So, for example, you know, there's a lot of money held in insurance. Funds and sort of pension fund. And rightly so. Those are conservative investors and have to invest in what you'd call like investment-grade quality projects. So, I think solar has come a long way in showing the strength of its credit and offtake. So, I believe the opportunity there is for India to structure the investments from pensions, from insurance funds into these solar projects, which act like annuities and whatever gap of credit that needs to be met between the solar contract, and the investment criteria for these funds, I think if that is bridged, there would be a very vibrant domestic capital market supporting these projects and also returns that are going to investors outside of India can go to investors in India and end common man.
At large, I think. That is an interesting opportunity from my perspective. I'm not going to delve deeper into like, oh, India should build, you know, green corridor and have like land, solar land. I think a lot of people talk about that already, so to me. I think the most interesting opportunity for India is to develop a more vibrant local capital markets or debt markets for pension and insurance money to flow into annuities for solar projects. 

Karan Takhar
 On the Other hand, I see I've been talking to a few finance years in the U.S., like Goldman Sachs. Renewable Power group, for example, which is part of their asset management team, and they do exactly this where it's a very stable investment, so they just purchased the projects after the developers. I have built it out, and yeah, that's a very interesting concept, and yeah, I didn't realize that India has not ventured into that area yet and yeah, just kind of continuing on this sort of path was curious because, in one of my classes, we had to create, like, a sample model to be able to like using quite realistic estimates for all most of their project development parameters like weighted average cost of capital or the upfront investment costs and things like this to come to  of rupees 2.48, which is which was Azure’s most recent. Terrified so, and it was very difficult to like to create stable returns using such a low tariff rate, but I guess. I would just like to hear your thoughts. Is this going to be an issue if, like the tariff rates continue to go further and further down, Will there be good returns in the foreseeable future even if tariffs just continue to go so low? What are your thoughts on that? Just curious to understand this.

Inderpreet Wadhwa
Yeah, I think. Then like every company has their own sort of models and return hurdles when it comes to tariffs, and this was sort of one of the most. Hotly contested topic on what is the right tariff, and you know that's where an open market, you know, helps you discover the right tariff. So, when I built the first project in 1791, my next project was at ₹15 in Gujarat.
The same question was posed like, OK, we've run these models. They barely make returns at 1791. At 15, it's a failure. Right, after the Gujarat project, we took on the next national Solar Mission auction at, you know, 11 or ₹12. a unit. Then people said. Oh, this is companies going to go under. They have no idea what they're doing. They're just in a frenzy. Then we built the next project at ₹8. in Punjab. Who said, oh, what? Are these guys thinking, OK? I mean, this whole industry is going to go under. I mean a lot of these people on the sidelines would make these remarks and make these comments, and then you know MTPC did its first auction, and Sun Edison came in the first time, and they did a project at ₹ five or something, and people said, Oh my goodness. Yes, like Sun Edison bankruptcies happened because of their bids in India at ₹5, right? So, there was that conversation then when SoftBank came along and SoftBank, you know, bidder project at 4 rupees, 60% or something like that is uh Oh my goodness, like sun Edison's already gotten bankrupt and. Who's going to compete with SoftBank now? SoftBank will be the only company I know, like politicians making open comments saying the only company that can build solar projects in India is going to be. SoftBank. Everybody else should fold their shop and leave because their cost of capital cannot compete with soft Bank. So Why I'm telling you? All of this stuff is today. The only question you asked me is about 248. You've not asked me a question about ₹4. You've not asked me a question about ₹5. You've not asked me a question about ₹8. ₹11 or ₹15. So, the fact all those numbers that were skeptical at one point made a lot of sense at the other point is a testament to the fact. But Solar will continue to get cheaper. And more efficient. So, a lot of things go into determining a tariff, and it's proprietary to companies.

Inderpreet Wadhwa
There's the cost of capital. There's the cost of land, cost of construction, cost of technology, the efficiency of technology, and the location of the plant. The voltage level at what you're building at. The radiation that is available, the repowering that is potentially possible? The cost of you talked about whack your cost of your equity cost of your debt when you throw all these parameters in and at a return hurdle that you're willing to do business a tariff comes out. So, there are projects that have been built at much lower tariffs than 248 in the world in if you look at in Middle East, people are building 1 and 1/2 cent projects people are talking about are even lower than that numbers. My view is that, at some point, these projects are fully amortized. Please. I mean, I'm just sort of maybe digressing from the answer you want, but it's important for you to understand that the dynamics of solar people are only talking about our 25-year PPA, 25-year returns, what happened in the 26th year?
Oh, this.

Karan Takhar
Is perfect.

Inderpreet Wadhwa
I mean, it's. A question for you, what do you think will happen to all these projects? So, let's say if you talk about Azure Power has about eighteen 19 megawatts running at different, let's say, you know, weighted average tariff of. ₹ 5 or ₹6 across the portfolio, and on the 26th year, what happens? Does it go down to Zero? What happens like what do you think will happen? So, we are producing 1800 megawatts of power every year, OK, right, in solar capacity, and our contracts are worth when you when you build your model, you build your model for 25 years, right? So, you run the year one, year 2, year three, let's say, 25 years from today in the year 2045. What happens to that 18 M.W. of generating capacity? In the year 2045, does it go to 0?

Karan Takhar
I think I see.

Inderpreet Wadhwa
What would it still be producing?

Karan Takhar
Power, oh, as in Kimber panels. Glass beyond that, so.

Inderpreet Wadhwa
Yeah, what do you think?

Karan Takhar
I think in the models, it's built-in that, like evacuation cost. Is that right thing?

Inderpreet Wadhwa
No, just a generation cost. So, you normally take a degradation of the panels you take. You take 10% in the 1st ten years and another 10% total of 20% in the next 15 years. So, people generally build models that these panels will produce at least 80% of their energy in the. 25th year. Oh, very interesting. So, if they. If they're producing 80% of energy in the. 25th year. What do you think it's going to do in 26th year.
 
Karan Takhar
Yeah, like 70%, at least.

Inderpreet Wadhwa
OK, right, 70% and your equities returns are paid off, and your debt is paid off. What is that? It is free power in 26 years.

Karan Takhar
So, will you have to create a new PPA or something? Like this? Sure, sure.
 
Inderpreet Wadhwa
You go into the market, and what is your competition? Your competition will be other projects and those projects those. Oh, I. Those other projects will charge something, right? So you can sell at whatever price you want. You're in the. Money. So, what people don't realize is that Solar is the only source of energy.

Karan Takhar
OK.

Inderpreet Wadhwa
That can potentially give power for free.

 Karan Takhar
I didn't realize 80% was in the 25th year.

 Inderpreet Wadhwa
It's like this is. Right, so. This is public knowledge. This is all known, but generally, people don't have that long horizon. People come in as an investor when it is profitable. They want to spend 3-4 years, double their money, and move on. That's the model for venture capital private equity. Today, most entrepreneurs nobody thinks about the 25,26,27,30-year investment horizon. So, to me, this 248 is a moot point. You can do it at 148 if you want, but you have to have the long longevity of your business plan of your business model. To make that number work. Now statistically, specifically on Azure or someone else who has bid 248, it would be what is my cost of debt, what is my cost of equity, and all these numbers. Then you can maybe make a little bit less return than other projects, and at a blended return level, you may be in the money, and if you're building it in Rajasthan, the radiation is high. If you're evacuating at high voltage levels or ultra-high voltage levels, your losses are low, so there are ways to make money at 248. It's not that. It's not doable. So again, I mean, in your model, the answer really comes from what your assumptions are, and none of these assumptions can be tweaked. And there are projects that are operational in India at ₹2.50 paise, ₹2.48%, their operational, and they're making money.

Karan Takhar
I see this conversation has been so good, and my final question is so as an entrepreneur, you've had an extremely incredible journey. And just reflecting back on your experience and also maybe back to when you were graduates from university. Would like what would what guidance would you provide to your younger self or even just someone like me who has just recently graduated college is really looking to do good work and what guidance? Would you provide?

Inderpreet Wadhwa
Yeah, you know, a few things, though. I think you know the 1st thing I'd say. All of these years, who sort of, you know, cheque. All the boxes that you've ever thought of checking, I think it's a fantastic time To do that because you won't get that time back. So that's sort of 1. I do give you. Then I'd say. Once you find your passion, you would just know that that's what your calling is and that's what you enjoy. And then it becomes, you know. This question of. Do you live to work, or work to live just blows, and you enjoy what you do so much that that just becomes an integral part of your life? And you never worry about, you know, being frustrated in a job. I mean, many people like to do 9 to 5, and then they say. Look, I wanna do something. Different, but I got bills to pay. I don't think they have the courage to really think outside the box, and that the few year of that experimentation gives you the courage because you really don't have much to lose. You don't have a family. You don't have kids to feed. You know you don't have a drag on you. You can do everything in your free time. And then you really enjoy, and you really become the expert in what you do. I'd always say, you know, be the best in what you do versus be a part of something that's. Best in the world. So, a lot of people just get carried away like overfits and e-commerce. I must do e-commerce. So, it's, I mean, I have these conversations with my daughter all the time, and she wants to take on professions that she is not passionate about. She loves history. I tell her to be a historian. I mean, no. Like what kind? Of job would I get, I said you'd. Figure it out, I mean. You'll be the best like anchor on Discovery Channel. You know who knows where you will end up but don't drive your decision and try and find what is the true meaning of being happy is. I think people tend to relate a lot of that with material stuff. I don't think if you look. Back and think. Of the best memories you've had in life, I doubt if they were linked with materialistic stuff. It'll be moments you spend with your loved ones, and you know whether they be your friends. In school college, and those experiences don't cost a whole lot of money. So, if you're able to create those experiences for the rest of your life, enjoying what you do, you'll be able to create. More of those experiences. And then the last thing I'd say is like when you're on your journey, whatever your journey, be persistent and don't give up because, you know, people just feel that, hey, you know, here's the end, and I must give up, and you know the end is not when you when you feel. Yeah, you should give. Up because it's not happened if you haven't finished, right? So, if you, if you got to what point you want to get? To it's great. If not, it's. Not yet the end, so keep going, and things will happen for you.

Karan Takhar
Thank you, Mr. Wadhwa, so much for your time and all of these great insights. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed that episode, and do check out the show notes For more information on my guest. See you next time.

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